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The McLaughlin Group

Issues: ISIS Execution, Obama's Budget Plan, Measles Outbreak

Participants:
John McLaughlin, Host
Pat Buchanan, Author and Columnist
Eleanor Clift, The Daily Beast
Tom Rogan, National Review/Daily Telegraph
Mort Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report

Taped: Friday, February 6, 2015
Broadcast: Weekend of February 6-7-8, 2015


ANNOUNCER: From Washington, THE MCLAUGHLIN GROUP, the American original. For over three decades, the sharpest minds, best sources, hardest talk.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, HOST: Issue one, Horror in Syria.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): The entire video is too horrific to air, but these are a few images. This is Lieutenant Moaz al-Kasasbeh, a twenty-six-year old Jordanian Air Force pilot. On December 24th, he was captured while flying a mission in Syria against the terrorist Islamic State forces, ISIS or ISO. In the 22-minute video released this week by the Islamic State, Lieutenant al-Kasasbeh was shown being led into a cage, drenched with flammable chemicals and burned alive. The video ends with the Islamic State offering a bounty to anyone who murders a pilot from any of the nations now fighting ISIS. Jordan had been hoping to make a prisoner exchange to secure the release of Lieutenant al-Kasasbeh. Now it's too late. The Jordanian populace has reacted with swift fury. Thousands flocked to the streets in the national expression of grief including Jordan's King, Abdullah II.

ABDULLAH II, KING OF JORDAN: They have condemned the brave pilot who was defending his values and his nation. It is our duty to stand up as one to face this crisis which will make us stronger and more united.

MCLAUGHLIN: Jordan didn't just react with fury. Since the murder video was released, Jordan has executed a number of Islamic State-linked prisoners on death row.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN: Jordan has launched "earth-shattering" retaliatory air strikes against ISIS. Also, ISIS is now claiming that these Jordanian air strikes had killed 26-year-old female American hostage, Kayla Mueller, a claim Jordan dismisses as a PR stunt. Question: does the murder of Lieutenant Kasasbeh require a change of strategy by the United States? Pat Buchanan.

PAT BUCHANAN, AUTHOR AND COLUMNIST: Not the United States, no. I think we're doing fairly well degrading ISIS. But let me tell you, John, this is very serious. It's a turning point. This has propelled, stampeded Jordan into this war, and the King of Jordan, Abdullah, is a descendant of the prophet. He is a Sunni and he is now taking the side de facto of Assad in Syria who's an ally of Iran, which is Shia, of Hezbollah which is Shia and of the United States and he's got a very unstable kingdom and I fear that down the road, this war, him getting into the war as actively as he has against ISIS which is a Sunni terrorist group, I think he's really taking a risk with the future of his kingdom.

MCLAUGHLIN: Let me -- a lot of pressure put on President Obama to mount a ground offensive. What do you think about them?

ELEANOR CLIFT, THE DAILY BEAST: I -- no. I think the immolation of the Jordanian pilot actually has galvanized the Jordanian people. The kingdom was ambivalent about this fight. The father of the pilot initially said, "Why are we fighting? This isn't our fight." Now it's their fight and they're taking the fight to ISIS. Now the bombing that's occurred, these are targets that were picked out by the Americans. The Americans are working very closely with the Jordanians.

MCLAUGHLIN: What are they doing?

CLIFT: But they are -- they're coordinating these fights and the -- and the --

MCLAUGHLIN: And they're refueling the jets.

CLIFT: Yes. Yes. And the Jordanians are writing verses from the Quran on the bombs basically saying, "We're going to take back our religion." I mean, this could be a positive turning point because this is their fight. It's -- actually, it's the world's fight. I mean, Japan has been brought in as well, but it's very much the fight of the Muslims who live in that part of the world and I think we're seeing this really galvanized.

MCLAUGHLIN: Is this war going to move into Syria?

TOM ROGAN, NATIONAL REVIEW/DAILY TELEGRAPH: Well, I mean, the war is ongoing in Syria. That's the heart of it at the moment, but the difficult here - I think Pat makes a good point that --

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, Syria has its own internal civil war going.

ROGAN: Yeah.

MCLAUGHLIN: But it has maintained itself to be outside of the particular range of war we're talking about.

ROGAN: Well, I mean, ISIS, the main base of operations is in Syria where the execute -- the murder of this pilot took place. I mean, Pat is right that there are internal pressures in Jordan as with a lot of the different Sunni monarchies in the region, but at the same time, the murder of a young Sunni Muslim man in such a grotesque way, multiple camera angles taking pleasure, sadistic pleasure from his death, it's a truly horrific video. I think it's a galvanizing point. That shows it's not just about the United States. Its idea of the US interfering is actually a lie. That it's about murdering Muslims and, again, this is what ISIS does, and Fallujah across the Sunni towns in Anbar, and Syria, and Deir ez-Zor, they murder innocent Muslim men, women and children and I think that recognition now is beginning to galvanize and hopefully will consolidate the other nations and discourage them to become part. One final thing though, problem, we still have with nations like Kedah who are allowing private fund raises to give a lot of money to these groups.

MCLAUGHLIN: Mort.

MORT ZUCKERMAN, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: Well, listen, I think what this is going to do amongst other things along with what was already stated, it's going to enable countries like Saudi Arabia to get dramatically involved with the - not only with financing, but with aircraft and other arms and politically so it's going to make a very big difference now in terms of who is going to be against ISIS because they are all going to now join too.

MCLAUGHLIN: Right. Well, here's --

ZUCKERMAN: In effect, do whatever they can with ISIS --

CLIFT: Right. Right.

MCLAUGHLIN: The involvement of Saudi Arabia?

ZUCKERMAN: Yes, I believe Saudi Arabia will now join with Jordan in terms of going after ISIS.

BUCHANAN: But here's the problem -

MCLAUGHLIN: That would be a huge step for Saudi Arabia.

BUCHANAN: John --

ZUCKERMAN: It certainly would be, but they now know that they too are at risk.

CLIFT: Yeah.

BUCHANAN: Here's the problem --

MCLAUGHLIN: Okay. On Thursday, President Obama delivered remarks at the National Prayer Breakfast against the backdrop of a world threatened by the brutal acts of Islamist terrorists. But Mr. Obama intimated that history provides examples of Christians committed in the name of religion "terrible deeds."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN: Question: why are some critics taking extreme umbrage at these remarks? Didn't Christians use religion to justify the Inquisition? Buchanan.

BUCHANAN: Let's take the Crusades, John Pope Urban II at Clermont, I think it was 1096, launched the Crusade, do you really believe the Crusade was what -- just like what Osama bin Laden did when he launched this war of terror? That's an absurdity. I mean, if you had to compare Christianity, which basically what did it come out of, John? In the three -- first three centuries of the Roman Empire, it didn't conquer the way Islam did by war and by armies, it conquered by persuading and converting people.

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.

BUCHANAN: John, let me make a point about this, this previous question you've got, if Saudi Arabia, and they're all going to send troops, the key question is: where are the soldiers going to come from who are going to fight in Syria to defeat ISIS's troops in Syria? Yeah. Saudis haven't gone in. The Turks could do it in an afternoon. They haven't. It's the Sunni problem we're talking about the fact that the Sunnis feel they cannot support Assad who's a Shia.

CLIFT: Well, the Jordanians are mobilizing troops and they have a very fine fighting force and they have incredible intelligence agents. I don't know that they're going to -- they're going to go in, but, you know, the Obama strategy looks like it might be believable that the countries in that region will take the fight and that Americans aren’t going to put troops on the ground, but on the religion thing, lots of terrible things had been done in the name of religion --

BUCHANAN: Uh-hmm.

CLIFT: -- over the centuries and it's a perversion of what religion proclaims to be. And the President made that illusion and I think it's entirely appropriate.

BUCHANAN: Uh-huh. Yeah. Bringing up the Inquisition when we just saw somebody burned to death in Inquisition in 1492?

CLIFT: Well, I'm sure he -- I'm sure -- I'm sure he could find other examples more recent --

MCLAUGHLIN: How long did the Inquisition last?

CLIFT: -- that would get you even more worked up.

BUCHANAN: Three hundred years.

MCLAUGHLIN: Three hundred years.

BUCHANAN: In Spain. Yeah.

MCLAUGHLIN: So he's bringing up 300 years of horror.

BUCHANAN: Well, you go back to Crusades, what, is it 900 or 1,000 years ago?

MCLAUGHLIN: Well --

BUCHANAN: -- in the same --

MCLAUGHLIN: It's a span of time. This was a one-time event.

BUCHANAN: Well, what is she doing bringing this up at a Prayer Breakfast where the event of the week is this slaughter and massacre and burning to death of this pilot?

MCLAUGHLIN: What do you think of what the President did?

CLIFT: Which --

ROGAN: I think --

CLIFT: It's man's inhumanity to man and it didn't start this year.

ROGAN: Well, I think he's trying to show that, yes, there are historical legacies of terror on the part of every religion, but the problem is the contemporary threat is from a --

BUCHANAN: Yeah.

ROGAN: -- specific brand of Salafi extremism and it is from a specific brand of Shia extremism supported by --

MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.

ROGAN: -- Iran.

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I'm off on another track now. I want to hear you tell me something about the Inquisition.

(Laughs)

ROGAN: The Inquisition, okay.

MCLAUGHLIN: What do you know about it?

ROGAN: Well, I know the Inquisition was conducted across Europe and many people were made to torture and suffer for their faith.

MCLAUGHLIN: Who were the bad guys?

BUCHANAN: Tomás de Torquemada was one of the bad guys.

MCLAUGHLIN: Who else? What was he -- who was he?

ROGAN: He --

BUCHANAN: He was the -- he was a Grand Inquisitor --

ROGAN: Inquisitor.

BUCHANAN: -- in Spain. He was in Spain. I believe he was --

MCLAUGHLIN: Was he a clerk?

BUCHANAN: I believe he was a Dominican.

MCLAUGHLIN: Dominican.

BUCHANAN: Dominicans did that. The Jesuits did other things, John.

(Laughter)

MCLAUGHLIN: Jesuits weren't even in existence for most of the time.

BUCHANAN: Yeah. They --

MCLAUGHLIN: So, tell me -- tell me -- tell me more about it.

BUCHANAN: The came in at the time (INAUDIBLE)

ROGAN: Do you want (INAUDIBLE)

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I think -- we got to try to figure out how far off this -- the President was.

ROGAN: But this -- but this -- right, but the Syria is --

MCLAUGHLIN: The president was --

ROGAN: Right, but Syria's issue was across the Middle East. Muslims are being abused by other Muslims. They have taken on the mantle of their religion. That has to end. The President has to face up to that because ultimately --

CLIFT: Well --

ROGAN: -- it's a political (INAUDIBLE) in Islam.

CLIFT: The --

MCLAUGHLIN: I think we've chewed this up enough, don't you?

CLIFT: Yes.

MCLAUGHLIN: Issue two, Obama the Budgeteer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SINGER: Money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH): The president had provided the American people a good laugh yesterday. He sent up his budget. More taxes, more spending, bigger government here in Washington, the same old policies that have failed for the last six years. It's not what the American people want.

MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): President Obama sent Congress a whopping $3.99 trillion budget proposal this week. Mr. Obama wants Congress to join him in shredding the Budget Control Act of 2011 and hiking federal spending by seven percent next fiscal year. Under the President's proposal, the Pentagon gets a 4.5% budget boost. Domestic agencies are freed from the spending caps known as sequestration. So, 100,000 new federal workers to be hired and those already on the payroll will get 1.3% pay hikes. The President also wants taxes to go up. Get this: his budget proposes $1.44 trillion in new taxes over the coming decade starting next year. The capital gains rate would nearly double from 15% when President Obama took office to 28%. First, cooperation, they get hit with a 14% one-time tax. That money would then pay for a public works and infrastructure program for the price tag of $478 billion. Second, individual tax payers. They would get hit with $746 billion in new tax dollar. How? By ending deductions and limiting contributions to individual retirement accounts. IRS over 10 years, the Obama budget would add to the national debt an increment of six trillion dollars bringing it to an all time high of twenty four trillion up from today's eighteen trillion dollars.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN: The US Congress will vote on this Obama budget. Is speaker Boehner is right in his description of it?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOEHNER: More taxes, more spending, bigger government here in Washington, the same old policies that have failed for the last six years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN: Mort.

ZUCKERMAN: Well, I mean, I think there is some truth to what he says. On the other hand, the President has to deal with a very weak economy relatively and we're going to have these kinds of deficits. The real question is: now, how are we going to be able to get some of these deficits under control? Because at some point, there's going to be a real crisis, a financial crisis, as our debts just accumulate. If you -- if you look at it now, for example, you will see that the deficits are going to continue to go through the next half dozen years and we're going to be in the situation where the debts going to -- the debt service is going to use up a lot of our funds and if we get any kind of inflation, okay? You'll get a much higher interest rate and you'll get a much higher debt service obligation leaving much less for whatever we need in the country to service the country's economy.

CLIFT: The deficit has fallen precipitously during the Obama years. Austerity politics have hurt Europe. The US economy is really beginning to move quite robustly. We've had extraordinary job growth the last couple of months, the best since 1998, the heyday of the Clinton years. The President is going in with this budget with a strong economy behind him and a feeling among the Republicans that they are now in charge. They're going to have to come back with their own ideas. Let's see what they want to do. They want to bust the cap on this sequester with the threats we face. Republicans, Democrats alike think you don't want to continue to starve the Pentagon, bringing money home from abroad, the corporations are sheltering for one-time tax which is much lower than the tax they would normally pay and rebuild an infrastructure that everybody receives is collapsing. There are some confluences of interest here. This budget is going to have some impact and there's going to be some -

BUCHANAN: It's -- this is a--

CLIFT: -- positive programs --

BUCHANAN: -- political --

CLIFT: -- coming out of it.

BUCHANAN: -- document entirely, John. It's like a platform statement of the Democratic party, but I think it's effective in some ways in the sense that Obama's pushing the Republicans to come out in favor basically a more spending on defense and defending rich folks and wealthy folks and people who inherit money, defending them and all their benefits and then he's aiding, you know, community colleges. It's a good Democratic ploy, but I don't think it's going anywhere. But there are small ball deals that you can probably cut on a corporate income tax rate and things like that and on infrastructure and bringing all that money home from begin.

MCLAUGHLIN: Okay, hold on.

ZUCKERMAN: Obama puts forth a whole series of programs that are going to cost billions and billions of dollars at this stage of the game. This is not the time in my judgment to do that.

MCLAUGHLIN: Okay. Who owns the debt?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN(voice-over): The national debt today is $18 Trillion. Under Mr. Obama's new budget, it will rise to $24 trillion, more than double the 10.6 trillion level when he took the office six years ago. Who owns that debt? If you say China, Guess again. About 30% of national debt is owned by, get this, the federal government itself in the Social Security Trust Fund and Military Fund and Federal Pension Fund. The Federal Reserve and State and Local Governments own another 20% of the federal debt. Another 15% is owned by mutual funds and private pension funds. In short, the majority of the national debt is owned by and therefore owed to American workers and American retirees. Also, foreign owners account for some 30% of the debt. China holds the biggest chunk of the US debt, $1.25 trillion. Japan is second, $1.22 trillion. Belgium is third. The Caribbean Islands hosting international bank, fourth. Other US foreign debt holders range from Switzerland to Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN: Question: who gets hurt the most if the US defaults on its debt, on its national debt? I ask you.

ROGAN: I think the people who get hurt the most are the American people, more specifically younger Americans. And the -- I think it's unlikely that the US would ever default on the debt. But the problem is here and reflected in the president's budget. This (INAUDIBLE) from my generation. The President portrays this budget as something that it'll -- it is the product of a better economic situation. In some sense, that is true. But the problem is, the CBO, The Congressional Budget Office, says in 2018 because of Baby Bootman is retiring and the entitlement pressures that are already huge, the deficit spirals again. So from generation the problem is if we're not reforming these things, we're putting all this more spending in, we're taxing things like would you go towards investment like capital gains, which most economist says is a really not a good idea to do. It's bad. It's bad for my generation.

MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah.

CLIFT: Oh --

ROGAN: We need entitlement reform and the president has no interest in that.

(LAUGHTER)

MCLAUGHLIN: Hold that. Let me ask you a minute. Who get hurts the most if the US defaults on its national debt?

ROGAN: Yeah, okay.

MCLAUGHLIN: Who gets hurt the most?

ROGAN: Well, the lower income Americans and I'll tell you why --

MCLAUGHLIN: I'll tell you who gets hurt the most.

ROGAN: -- because as we get -- interest rates will go up and people will not have the ability to, you know, be able to take loans and --

MCLAUGHLIN: What I have here is Social Security recipients get hurt the most.

ZUCKERMAN: That's right, that's right.

MCLAUGHLIN: Retired federal workers gets hurt the second most, retired military personal the third, more the broadly, the state and local governments and pension funds that have invested in the US Treasury.

ZUCKERMAN: That's right.

CLIFT: This is the --

ZUCKERMAN: That's exactly what happened.

CLIFT: -- biggest strong man I've seen --

BUCHANAN: I've never heard --

CLIFT: -- from quite a long time.

(LAUGHTER)

BUCHANAN: Strong enough to --

(Cross Talk)

ZUCKERMAN: What did you mean by strong man?

CLIFT: We have -- we're dealing with an economy that really is beginning to take hold. The full faith of the American government is behind these various financial instruments. China is not going to raise the interest rates and throw us into default because what's that (INAUDIBLE) with thousand dollars to your bank or it's your problem, you owe 10 million, it's the banker's problem. We have a -- quite a stable system here right now.

BUCHANAN: And what's --

CLIFT: And the President is correct that we need to invest with --

BUCHANAN: Do you know how you're going to pay the debt?

CLIFT: -- infrastructure --

MCLAUGHLIN: Hold on, Pat.

CLIFT: -- education --

MCLAUGHLIN: Let her finish. Hurry up, hurry up.

CLIFT: We need to invest in infrastructure, in education, and begin to look at the world we're creating and the -- and the generations --

BUCHANAN: John, the way it is --

MCLAUGHLIN: Uh-huh.

CLIFT: -- that are coming along --

BUCHANAN: John, let me tell you how you're going to get out of the debt.

CLIFT: --younger than Tom --

MCLAUGHLIN: Send an email, send an email to President Obama. That's a good idea.

(LAUGHTER)

BUCHANAN: All right. John, let me tell you how you're going to get out of the debt.

MCLAUGHLIN: What?

BUCHANAN: We're going to inflate our way out of the debt. Look, you know, it used to be a silver dollar was worth one dollar. You can now get 20 paper dollars. United States and all these other countries, all these world debt eventually is going to be flated -- inflated away and floated away and we're not going to default.

MCLAUGHLIN: All right though. We don't want this to be wasted rectitude on our part.

CLIFT: Yeah.

MCLAUGHLIN: Doing what no one else will do in a talk show in Washington, D.C. or anywhere. The exit question is this: is this budget dead on arrival in congress? Yes or no?

BUCHANAN: The big budget's dead, but they're going to have small deals.

MCLAUGHLIN: Small deals?

BUCHANAN: Yeah.

CLIFT: It's not dead. They're going to get some family friendly things because the Republicans want to appeal to the middle class as well. You're going to get something on tax reform and you're probably going to bust the caps on defense. And if you bust the caps on defense, you got to get more spending so, yes.

MCLAUGHLIN: The New York Times call this -- calls this Obama's utopian vision.

ROGAN: Yeah. Well, it is --

MCLAUGHLIN: Did -- now, did utopia exist?

ROGAN: Did Utopia ever exist?

MCLAUGHLIN: Uh-huh.

ROGAN: At the eye of the beholder. Subjective interpretation of Utopia, right?

MCLAUGHLIN: Right, right. So what's going to be the impact to this?

ROGAN: Well, I think one problematic impact of it is we talk about -- we're talking about ISIS at the moment, national security challenge. The president as commander-in-chief is using military spending, from an ideological point of view, he's saying you're not going to get military spending, commander-in-chief, I'm not going to fulfill that responsibility unless I get what I want, from the Liberal Democratic point of view, another domestics money. I think that's an extraordinary neglective responsibility at a critical moment.

CLIFT: It's called compromises, what you do with it.

ROGAN: Well, but he's the commander-in-chief.

CLIFT: What you do as --

MCLAUGHLIN: Hold on.

CLIFT: -- representative --

MCLAUGHLIN: I want to --

CLIFT: -- democracy.

ROGAN: Commander-in-chief.

MCLAUGHLIN: I want to hear from Mort. I want to hear from Mort.

ZUCKERMAN: We have a terrifically difficult issue here to face, okay? We simply cannot run-up all this deficits forever. One other thing that it is going to happen at some point is inflation, okay? And if that inflation hits, then we're really going to be in trouble. So, we've got to be really very careful about how we handle this. At some point there --

BUCHANAN: How do you avoid it?

ZUCKERMAN: How do you -- how do you avoid it?

CLIFT: How long have you been --

BUCHANAN: Inflation, then I can--

CLIFT: --predicting inflation?

(LAUGHTER)

BUCHANAN: -- touch the entitlement. Neither party is going to touch the entitlement.

ZUCKERMAN: At some point, you have -- you have to make a conclusion here that somebody gets into office who could -- who knows how to lead the country, to deal with some of these issues. We've done it before. Ronald Reagan, if I may so, did that. You've probably heard of him.

MCLAUGHLIN: Mort --

ZUCKERMAN: So the only thing I'm saying to you is that you've got to find leadership to deal with these issues.

BUCHANAN: Well --

MCLAUGHLIN: That's --

CLIFT: That's a pretty underhanded --

MCLAUGHLIN: -- Mort's words to live by.

CLIFT: -- way to get at Obama.

(LAUGHTER)

MCLAUGHLIN: Words to live by Mort. Issue Three: Measles Menace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAND RAUL, SENATOR (R) KENTUCKY: I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who've wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines. I'm not arguing vaccines are bad idea. I think they're a good thing. But I think the parent should have some input. The state doesn't own your children. Parents own the children and it is an issue in freedom.

CHRIS CHRISTIE, GOVERNOR, (R) NEW JERSEY: There has to be a balance and it depends on what the vaccine is, what the disease type is and all the rest.

MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): The latest measles menace began six weeks ago in December at Disneyland, California. Now, the measles outbreak has spread across the nation infecting over 100 people. Measles is a highly contagious virus transmitted through the air. Its symptoms which follows some 10 days after infection includes sore eyes, spots inside the mouth, high fevers, rashes, aches and pain. Worldwide, measles killed 145,000 people last year yet it can be prevented by a simply vaccination. Why do outbreaks like these occur? Experts say the culprits are those parents who refuse to accept the overwhelming scientific consensus that vaccinations are safe. The problem is that some children cannot be vaccinated because of preexisting medical conditions, conditions that also make them more vulnerable to serious health problems if they contract measles. These children are thus endangered by parents who refuse to vaccinate their own children, but there is potential political toxicity with vaccination. Here's President Obama today.

OBAMA: There is every reason to get vaccinated. There aren't reasons to not.

MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): But as a candidate in 2008, seven years ago.

OBAMA: And autism I think is a prime candidate where we've seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Nobody knows exactly why. There are some people who are suspicious that it's connected to vaccines. Those vaccines are also preventing huge numbers of deaths among children.

MCLAUGHLIN: Question: what action, if any, should the government take if a parent refuses to vaccinate a child against a virus like measles? Tom Rogan.

ROGAN: Well, a child is the responsibility of parents. It is the responsibility of the state to interfere in the life of the family and so vaccination is forced. But here's the caveat and it's a big caveat, if a parent is unwilling to vaccinate their child for these things, they should be excluded from educational facilities, from the public arena because as much as government doesn't have the right to enter that private domain nor does it have the responsibility to allow that private individual based on that, in my opinion, poor choice, to enter the public domain and endanger other children, it's outrageous that that's happening, and it's really quite stunning that in the United States in the 21st Century, we have this issue with some parents for whatever reason think that it's okay.

MCLAUGHLIN: Mort, do you share that view?

ZUCKERMAN: More or less, yes, I do. But I think we are in a situation now where there's a kind of almost no nothing view of what the value of a lot of these vaccinations is. I'm really just astounded by it. I mean, if you'd look at polio for example, there are vaccinations that just saved I know -- God knows how many lives. Are you going to say that these vaccinations are meaningless?

ROGAN: Right.

ZUCKERMAN: I mean, this is not casually done. They're all tested. They have to be -- gone through an extraordinary process of review by the federal government before they can be distributed, so how -- I mean, it's an irrational point of view.

CLIFT: Well --

MCLAUGHLIN: Okay. Here's what Hillary Clinton tweeted about vaccinations. "The science is clear, the earth is round, the sky is blue and #vaccineswork. Let's protect all our kids." What do you make of that?

BUCHANAN: You know, John, yeah, I lived in a home. You probably did to with nine kids, wherever you're constantly quarantined from measles, mumps, scarlet fever, polio, all these other things. I'm a great believer in these vaccines, but there is a moral question and there is a question of -- I mean, if parents believes a Christian scientist, they do not automatically want this done. I think they themselves don't have to have it done, but it's really a question of whether you vaccinate these kids and I agree basically with Tom in the last analysis, I don't think you can take a child and force a needle into its arm a vaccine if the parents resist.

MCLAUGHLIN: Well, read the --

CLIFT: Well, the problem --

ZUCKERMAN: What happens --

MCLAUGHLIN: -- read the -- read the --

ZUCKERMAN: -- what happens if that child --

MCLAUGHLIN: -- Just a minute. Read the last, the conclusion.

ZUCKERMAN: -- infects a lot of other people because they haven't been vaccinated?

CLIFT: That's right. And you have --

BUCHANAN: I'd say the family should be quarantined.

CLIFT: Right. And you have --

ZUCKERMAN: There you are. Quarantine them.

CLIFT: --pediatricians now who are saying they're not going to accept patients who are not vaccinated because they have other children in their waiting rooms who are -- have immune systems that are compromising can't be vaccinated.

BUCHANAN: But the flu -- the flu kills far more than measles and we can all optionally take or not take the flu vaccine and we do.

CLIFT: Yeah, but it's very different from children who are entering into public schools when most public schools require you to take vaccines. And enough people comply that we have what's sort of a "herd" immunization.

BUCHANAN: There you go.

CLIFT: And we should point out that when candidate Obama made those comments about the link between autism and vaccines, that was when there was still some thought that there was a causation --

ROGAN: Not really.

CLIFT: -- and that -- those studies had been totally debunked.

MCLAUGHLIN: Prediction, Pat. Be quick.

BUCHANAN: Coming -- great crisis coming over the Ukraine, over the question of whether America's going to send weapons to Ukraine. Merkel and Hollande right now in Moscow trying to cut a deal.

MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor.

CLIFT: As long as the Republican presidential wannabes keep tripping over each other in stupid comments like they made this last week about vaccinations, Hillary Clinton will delay her formal entry into the race.

MCLAUGHLIN: Are you serious?

CLIFT: Letting the Republican have center stage, just sit back and enjoy.

MCLAUGHLIN: Tom.

ROGAN: Jordan will introduce Special Forces into Syria and Iraq.

ZUCKERMAN: Yes.

MCLAUGHLIN: Mort.

ZUCKERMAN: And Saudi Arabia will join Jordan in both of those fields because they can no longer stay independent of all of this.

MCLAUGHLIN: Governor John Kitzhaber from the Oregon will resign from office before Easter.

Bye-bye!


END