The McLaughlin Group

Issues: Hillary’s E-Mails / Ted Cruz ‘s Actions / Next Session of Congress / Sea Slavery

John McLaughlin, Host
Pat Buchanan, Author & Columnist
Eleanor Clift, The Daily Beast
Tom Rogan, National Review/Daily Telegraph
Mort Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report

Taped: Friday, July 31, 2015
Broadcast: Weekend of July 31-August 2, 2015

Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein
are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced,
distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the
prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any
trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>

ANNOUNCER: From Washington, THE MCLAUGHLIN GROUP, the American original. For over three decades, the sharpest minds, best sources, hardest talk.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, HOST: Issue One: Hillary’s Emails.


HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I did not email any classified material to anyone on my email. There is no classified material. So, I’m certainly well aware of the classification requirements and did not send classified material.

MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): Hillary Clinton may be adamant, but the inspector general for the State Department and the inspector general for the intelligence community disagreed. Last week, the IG for the intelligence community advised Congress that emails sent by Hillary Clinton on her private email server contained information that should have been classified secret, S-E-C-R-E-T, all caps.

According to the inspector general, sample of 40 of Mrs. Clinton’s 30,000 emails show that four had classified information. That’s 10 percent of the sample. Hundreds of Hillary’s emails may contain secrets, according to the IG. Mishandling government secrets is a criminal offense with a penalty of up to one year in prison.

Last Friday, the Justice Department confirmed to reporters, that it had been asked by the two inspectors general to open a criminal probe into the matter. Four hours later, the Justice Department began backpedaling, saying instead that it had only been asked to probe potential mishandling of classified information.

Whether or not to open a criminal probe is up to Attorney General Loretta Lynch, who has only been on the job for three months. Lynch must now decide whether to open a probe that could either exonerate the likely Democratic presidential nominee, or depending on investigators’ findings, cripple Clinton’s chances.

A third alternative, Lynch could recuse herself from making the decision on grounds of a conflict of interest. In 1999, then-President Bill Clinton gave her career a strong boost by appointing Lynch U.S. attorney for the eastern division of New York, a position she held until tapped by President Obama to replace Eric Holder.

Question: If you were Loretta Lynch, how would you handle this political hot potato?

Pat Buchanan?

PAT BUCHANAN, AUTHOR & COLUMNIST: I’ll turn it over to the deputy attorney general and sort of semi-recuse myself and let them control the investigation.

But, John, look, Hillary Rodham Clinton is suffering now the death of a thousand cuts. They gave over 40 of those private emails and they found out classified documents on four of them. That’s 10 percent, and there are tens of thousands more. She got rid of 55,000 emails. They’re asking now that she give up the server.

I think her poll numbers are sinking like a stone. Here negatives were something like about 10 or 15 points higher than her positives and her trustworthiness it’s something like 20-point gap. People believe she’s not trustworthy. John, then you got the potential of this thing blowing up down the road or something. It could be a landmine down the road. I’m telling you, I think Joe Biden ought to start warming up in the bull pen.


BUCHANAN: Well, I think he ought to take a look at this. Sure.


ELEANOR CLIFT, THE DAILY BEAST: If the Democratic Party needs a savior, Joe Biden is there. There’s nothing imminent. I think this whole email controversy has been, you know, blown up out of proportion.

Loretta Lynch is a straight arrow attorney general. I highly doubt that she would recuse herself. There’s a procedure you go through.

See, this isn’t a criminal investigation of Hillary Clinton. It’s looking at the State Department security system. And, you know, I think anytime the word "email" appears related to Hillary Clinton, it’s not good for Hillary Clinton.

But controversy always comes with the Clintons, both of them. But they’ve got enormous support in the country. She’s the most commanding, non-incumbent that we have seen in a presidential race for sometime. And let’s remember that Bill Clinton was elected and reelected two times, with trust numbers that weren’t that great. Remember, Slick Willie and all that.

Hillary Clinton has a lot of other attributes. We’re not in the compare and contrast part of the campaign yet. None of the Republicans have numbers. The Republicans numbers are worse than hers.

TOM ROGAN, NATIONAL REVIEW/DAILY TELEGRAPH: The problem is for Hillary is that, what comes next. And I -- you know, when this first came out in March, I -- really my first impression was, well, if you’ve got a private server and foreign intelligence services know about it, the French, the Russians, the Chinese, the Israelis, all have the capacity probably to hack into that. They may have the evidence there. They may actually control Hillary Clinton’s destiny if they have classified material that that they could then leak.

CLIFT: Manchurian candidate.


ROGAN: Well, no. I mean, literally, intelligence services will hack things to try and get an advantage.

CLIFT: Sure. They hacked the State Department I might add.

ROGAN: OK. But the private server, that was an extraordinary, at best, it was an extraordinary negligence. But at worse, again, it could be a criminal issue here. So, this could destroy her campaign.

MCLAUGHLIN: OK. Here’s what President Obama says about protecting classified information. This is his position, quote, "As commander-in-chief, I believe we must keep information secret that protects our operations and our people in the field. To do so, we must enforce consequences for those who break the law and breach their commitment to protect classified information." That was President Obama in a counterterrorism speech in May 2013.

What do you think of where we are now in this discussion?

MORT ZUCKERMAN, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: Well, I think in May of that year, that might have been relevant. I don’t think it’s relevant to what’s going on with Hillary. I don’t think there was anything like some kind of serious attempt to avoid the secret -- or the security dimensions of what she had on her equipment. It just seems to me, frankly, I can’t get excited about this, because it just doesn’t seem to me to be the kind of thing that anybody would have done deliberately in terms of knowing --


BUCHANAN: They’re walking through a minefield.

ZUCKERMAN: I don’t disagree.

CLIFT: It was -- it’s a stupid thing that she did and I believe it comes out -- excuse me, it comes out of an excess of caution on her part. And that’s when she gets in trouble, when she’s trying to overly cautious.

But, you know, it’s been said many times, her predecessors also used private servers. Colin Powell did I believe. I think Gates did --


BUCHANAN: There’s been no excess of candor on her part, though, has there?

But, look, there’s -- John, she is walking down -- this is -- what, 15 or 16 more months before we get to the election.

ROGAN: Right.

BUCHANAN: This could go boom!

ROGAN: Right.

BUCHANAN: All the Justice Department has got to say is, we’ve opened a criminal --



MCLAUGHLIN: All the Justice Department has got to say is, we have now begun to open a criminal investigation because it appears there are a lot more secrets, just like the ones before. As soon as they say that in the primaries, that candidacy could blow sky high.


CLIFT: Sure. But that’s your fantasy. That’s what you’re imagining. The likelihood here --

MCLAUGHLIN: All right. I want to -- I want to --

CLIFT: -- is that there’s nothing here.

BUCHANAN: Why do you say there’s a likelihood there’s nothing here?

MCLAUGHLIN: Let me in. Hello, hello, hello?


CLIFT: That’s the likelihood that I believe, just like you believe in the other likelihood. And the country out there couldn’t care less.

MCLAUGHLIN: They’re out of control.


MCLAUGHLIN: You’re out of control.

Now, wait a minute. I want to hear from you.

ROGAN: Well, I --

MCLAUGHLIN: What’s your point here?

ROGAN: I tend to think it’s a fantasy to believe that there’s another big issue here for Hillary Clinton. Why did she have a private server? To me, it suggests she had something to hide, strongly. I think that’s based on she knew as secretary of state, there will be a lot of intelligence service activity. You have the State Department security procedure to protect your private server. She wiped the server, which is irreconcilable to --


MCLAUGHLIN: Exit question --

CLIFT: So, she’s deliberately skirting the intelligence rules, you’re saying? I --

ROGAN: Yes, I think so.

CLIFT: I think that’s not -- that’s not going to be proven. But we’ll fight about it.

BUCHANAN: Ten percent of her emails had top secret -- had secrets on them, John.

CLIFT: We can --

BUCHANAN: Ten percent of her email they saw had secrets on them.

CLIFT: Right.

BUCHANAN: It’s probable that on the 33,000, there might be a few more.

CLIFT: Yes, you know --


CLIFT: You know that White House secrets and classifications. They classify just about everything.

MCLAUGHLIN: We’ve got to get out. We’ve got to get out.

Pat raised this a little earlier in the record. Exit question: is it time for Joe Biden to get in the race? Just in case Hillary goes down in flames?

BUCHANAN: I think he ought to prepare himself to get into the race. He doesn’t have to get in early. If this blows up, and it could, I think the natural leader of the Democratic Party is Joe Biden, if John Kerry --

MCLAUGHLIN: You think Joe Biden --

BUCHANAN: -- doesn’t decide to take a look at it, too.

MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think Joe Biden hungers for the job?

BUCHANAN: I think Joe Biden did hunger for the job at one time and I think he’s seeing something rising again, a real possibility -- a Nixonian possibility of a comeback.

MCLAUGHLIN: Quickly. We’re way over. We’re way over.

CLIFT: I said earlier. If the party needs a savior, he’s there. But Hillary is in a strong position, much stronger than the dialogue today suggests.

MCLAUGHLIN: He’s a yes, he should get in.

And you?

ZUCKERMAN: Yes. I think if this gets to anything that we don’t know now comes out again, he should get in. He should be ready to get in.

MCLAUGHLIN: Joe Biden, start warming your engines.


MCLAUGHLIN: Issue Two: Tales Out of School.


SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And the majority leader looked at me and said, "There is no deal. There is no deal. There is no deal." Like Saint Peter, he repeated it three times.

My staff told me that afternoon, "He’s lying to you." That’s what my staff said. "We’ve been around the Senate a long time. He is not telling you the truth."

MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): Senator Ted Cruz has declared war on Republican Senate majority leader, Senator Mitch McConnell. Senator Cruz says that Mr. McConnell made a covert deal with Democrats to ensure the reauthorization of the Export-Import Bank, something Mr. Cruz and many other Republicans oppose. Senator Cruz claims Senator McConnell lied to him by denying that no deal had been struck.

While some conservatives have praised Senator Cruz for his words, other Republicans, like the Senate’s second highest ranking official, Senator Orrin Hatch, believe Mr. Cruz has impugned the Senate’s tradition of respectful debate.

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: Deliberation without decorum is not deliberation at all. It is bickering. And bickering, Mr. President, is beneath this body.


MCLAUGHLIN: Question: Would you consider Senator Cruz a whistleblower?

CLIFT: No. He’s trying get attention to make sure he gets on the debate stage, makes the 10-person cut off for the Republican debate next week. He’s also the most disliked member of the Senate, which across party lines tends to be a clubby place. He’s talking about a covert deal. It was on the front page of "The New York Times", as part of the passage of fast track trade negotiations, in order to get the number of votes that Republicans needed to get that through. Because they and the president wanted that to pass, they agreed that they would bring up this Export-Import Bank as an amendment to the transportation bill.

He’s all twisted out of shape, because he wants to kill that bank. That’s what conservatives, they can’t get rid of cabinet departments, so they want to kill this little bank which basically creates jobs and has helped reduced the deficit. Most Democrats want it and a lot of Republicans want it. And Mr. Cruz is out in the cold.

BUCHANAN: Let me tell you want this is all about. Cruz has elevated himself and he has damaged himself with anybody in the Senate that still likes him. But this is about the presidential election. Cruz has got out front on this issue, calling the majority leader a liar, he goes out and says Barack Obama is a, I guess, the biggest terrorist, you know, an Islamic -- supporter of Islamic terrorism because of this Iran deal.

Mike Huckabee says the Iran deal is going to take the Jewish folks and take them to their door of the oven.

All this is about the Republican primaries and getting -- you know, Trump has taken over the whole debate. They want to get themselves through because there’s a real possibility, for example, that Trump could implode. And if he falls, these guys want to be out there on the edge, working with the base, working frankly with the -- in the Jewish community with Sheldon Adelson, who’s got tremendous amounts of money.

This is all about the whole dynamic of the Republican presidential race.

ROGAN: I think that’s right. I mean, I think it’s more than the fundraisers. They are just trying to demand media attention.

But look, Ted Cruz -- yes. I mean, all the other Republican senators have openly repudiated his comments. He’s deeply unpopular. And so, I think he is -- ultimately, this is a political game.



ZUCKERMAN: Yes, I share your view. But Cruz is somehow or another, there’s something about him that is all self-promoting and he does it, it seems to me, in a way that is inappropriate for the Senate. I mean, I just don’t understand why he thinks he has to put it this way. So, I don’t think he is a heavyweight as far as I’m concerned. And --

BUCHANAN: I think he’s waiting to see Trump -- when Trump slips and falls, they are the logical inheritors. He wants to be heir apparent.

CLIFT: He wants to be the next Donald Trump, saying the most despicable things, really getting the base riled up and he wants to inherent Trump’s support.


ROGAN: But Trump has stolen that thunder from him, and he can’t get it back.

ZUCKERMAN: No way. He doesn’t have one tenth of Trump’s charm.



CLIFT: Right.

BUCHANAN: Are you a Trump man now?

ZUCKERMAN: Are you kidding?


MCLAUGHLIN: What does that mean?

CLIFT: That was facetious comment.



BUCHANAN: He said he doesn’t have a tenth of Trump’s charm.

CLIFT: That was a facetious comment.


MCLAUGHLIN: Well, they’re both in real estate.

ROGAN: Mort has charms.


MCLAUGHLIN: Mort has real estate all over Manhattan.

Trump has real estate all over Manhattan.

BUCHANAN: I’m not disparaging what Mort said. I’m just surprised by it.

ZUCKERMAN: Yes, no --


ZUCKERMAN: I’ve always liked him and I’ve known him for a very long time. I just don’t think he is the person who should be the president of the United States.

MCLAUGHLIN: Who should?

ZUCKERMAN: Oh, now, you’re asking me an --


MCLAUGHLIN: It’s just time for a Trump update. Trump is in Scotland. What else about --


BUCHANAN: Let me tell what’s happened about Scotland. Let me tell you the update.

The update is that Donald Trump has vaulted way into the lead for the Republican nomination. He’s got twice the support of Jeb Bush, and Marco Rubio is sinking. And Trump’s ahead in Florida. He’s ahead in New Hampshire. He’s ahead in Iowa and all these states.

And the feeling is, wait a minute, perhaps he won’t implode. Everybody thinks he’s going to explode.

CLIFT: But, Pat --

MCLAUGHLIN: Wait a minute. Let him continue --

BUCHANAN: Everybody thinks he’s going to explode and implode. But let me tell you, if the nomination race started off today and it’s not, six months from now. If started today, he’d win the nomination.

CLIFT: But, Pat, he’s getting 20 percent to 22 percent or 23 percent --

BUCHANAN: Twenty-six.

CLIFT: Twenty-six? OK, maybe he can get up to 30. You know, that’s still a small portion --

BUCHANAN: In a 17-man field?

CLIFT: Well, it’s still a relatively small portion. Somebody’s going to contest it for and, boy, if the Republicans want to give him the nomination, I say, bring it on.

BUCHANAN: You endorse him, like Mort?

CLIFT: Whatever Hillary Clinton’s numbers are, she will win in the landslide.

ROGAN: Trump is not going to win because ultimately, if it comes to it, all the other Republican candidates will gravitate towards one --



ROGAN: All the other candidates will come -- all the other support base will go to one other candidate, if it’s Trump and someone else.

CLIFT: Anybody but Trump.


ROGAN: Any but Trump.

MCLAUGHLIN: Why, why, why?

ROGAN: Because he cannot win the general election, and because, quite frankly, I think a lot of other conservatives tend to think a lot of the things he says are pretty stupid.

MCLAUGHLIN: Why can’t he win the general election?

CLIFT: Oh, please?

ROGAN: Because of the way that he is, because he’s not president -- I think he’s not presidential material.


BUCHANAN: He has a mountain to climb, John.

MCLAUGHLIN: Oh, I don’t know about that.

BUCHANAN: John, he’s got a hill -- a real hill to climb to get the nomination. No doubt about it, because of what Tom says, the other candidates will drop out and endorse the establishment candidate. And to win the election, he’s got Mt. Everest to climb. But I’ll tell you, he’s further down the road or further up the mountain than I though he would be right now.

CLIFT: I hope he spends --


CLIFT: -- many billions to get as far as he goes.

MCLAUGHLIN: OK. House of Cards.


MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): On Tuesday, Republican Congressman Mark Meadows launched a surprise bid to oust John Boehner as the speaker of the House of Representatives. Mr. Meadows claims Speaker Boehner has centralized power and failed to advance conservative interests. While the challenge is largely symbolic -- Boehner has more than enough votes to hold on to his speakership -- it illustrates the bumpy road ahead when Congress returns from its August recess.

On the horizon, a potential contentious tax and spending votes on federal highway spending, federal government funding due to expire October 1st, and raising the $18.1 trillion federal debt ceiling before the Treasury Department’s coffers run dry in November.


MCLAUGHLIN: Question: Are we in for Capitol Hill fireworks this fall? Eleanor?

CLIFT: This will be the fall from hell, but not because Speaker Boehner is in any kind of jeopardy. This Congressman Meadows may have some people behind him. But no, the speaker is not really vulnerable. But they’re going to bump up against the spending cliffs. They’re probably going to shut down the government over defunding Planned Parenthood.

And what this gentleman from North Carolina represents is between 30 and 60 members of the Republican caucus who John Boehner cannot control and who have basically paralyzed the Republican House and paralyzed the Congress in general. Congress has an 8 percent approval rating. It’s really a shame.

BUCHANAN: You could have a shutdown, I think, of the government in the fall over this big budget bill and what’s been attached to it and appended to it, and it would be utterly unacceptable to the Democrats in the Senate and to, of course, the president of the United States if it ever got to his desk.

MCLAUGHLIN: They’ve got budget issue. They’ve got the Iran nuclear executive agreement.

BUCHANAN: That will be separate. The Iran agreement will be voted on I think around mid-September. Right now, it doesn’t have -- it has virtually no Republican support.


MCLAUGHLIN: They’ve got the federal debt ceiling extension. There may be as many fireworks here. This fall, as they were in 2013, as Eleanor points out, or somebody did here, during the 16-day government shutdown that October. You want to predict that?

BUCHANAN: Well, no, I think it’s a pretty good prediction, that you could have a train wreck in the fall.

ROGAN: I think the reason is, John, you’re going to have the Republican -- the element -- two sides, right? The Republican leadership who want to essentially have it cleaned, because they’re worried about their party’s 2016 ramifications. Then, you have the firebrands, then you have the presidential candidates who want to generate that Republican anger towards their own campaign. So, there’s a division.

I think it will go to a shutdown.

MCLAUGHLIN: We’ve got to get out.

Exit question: How has the 114th Congress done so far this year? Assign a midterm letter grade from A to F.

Pat Buchanan?

BUCHANAN: You know, I’ll give it -- it’s got some things done. I’ll give it a B.

CLIFT: I’ll give it a D. It got some things done, but left a lot of big tick items on --

BUCHANAN: A lot like Harry Reid.



ROGAN: I think it’s a B. It’s an improvement.

ZUCKERMAN: Yes. I’ll give it a C. They’ve gotten a few things done, but not nearly enough.

MCLAUGHLIN: I’ll give it close to that. I’ll give it a B-plus.

ZUCKERMAN: There you are.

MCLAUGHLIN: My reasoning is at follows: the House and Senate passed the first balanced budget in six years; the first major Medicare reform in 20 years; the Keystone XL bill -- Obama vetoed it. And number four, a major education bill; and they’re on the way to a highway bill. Not bad.

Issue Four: Sea Slaves.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): He kicked and punched me, and my nose and mouth are bleeding. I still have blood clots to my teeth and my jaw hurts every time I chew.

I kept thinking about my family. There were times, I was about to jump into the sea to kill myself. My friend held me back. Otherwise, I’d be dead by now.

MCLAUGHLIN (voice-over): Long unnoticed, sea slavery is slowly attracting new attention. Each year, thousands of men from across Southeast Asia are lured to Thailand by the promise of work and money. Once arrived, they are forced to become slaves on Thai fishing vessels.

Fishing is a highly lucrative industry for the Thai economy and according to "The New York Times", the United States is the biggest importer of Thai fish. Much of these imports are for US cat food products like Iams, Meow Mix and Fancy Feast. And with the average American pet cats consuming 30 pounds of fish per year, American pet owners are filling Thai wallets. Last year, Thailand earned $190 million from its pet food exports.

But the Thai fishing industry has too few workers and that’s where "sea slaves" come in, often undocumented, often speaking different languages to their captains and often held at gunpoint, these men are enslaved without hope of rescue.


MCLAUGHLIN: Question: Are major global corporations, like Nestle and Mars, Inc. fueling slavery one tin of cat food at a time?

Pat Buchanan?

BUCHANAN: I don’t believe they are, John. And if they now know this information, they ought to deal with the folks that are selling them the fish for the cats. But, frankly, this is a problem basically for the Southeast Asian themselves and their navies. And it’s something where they’re like Somali pirates, people that do that, and they ought to get the same treatment, the Somali pirates do, and those folks out to be liberated.

ROGAN: Right.

MCLAUGHLIN: Does this have special interest for you, in view of the fact that you had a cat that you call "Cat", a gorgeous white cat, solid white?

BUCHANAN: We didn’t feed him. He got lobster, John.


CLIFT: "The New York Times" did an excellent piece of reporting and this is really a tragic story. And first of all, they’re overfishing the waters. The boats are going farther out. They stay out for months at a time. People are kept in horrendous conditions.

I think when Americans become aware of this, from a public relations standpoint, the companies that are involved are going to be just as worried about doing business this way, as they -- remember slave labor, and sneakers and clothes made in these countries and the corporations reacted. I would hope that the corporations do react here, and especially if we’re going to be entering a trade agreement with countries in that region. This is something of -- should of great interests to the US administration.

MCLAUGHLIN: Rogan, she’s feeding a question that I want to ask you. Will you look for a can label slavery-free product before you buy?

ROGAN: Well, I don’t eat cat food. But if I had a cat, I wouldn’t buy -- yes, I think I would -- it would -- I think what we’ll see, as Eleanor suggests, is that we can move to a suggestion, as with tuna, that people wanted to see that it was not -- dolphins were not killed.

So, this will be "no slaves were involved in this cat food." I think that will happen. I think "The New York Times" reporter is probably going to get a Pulitzer, because it’s going to be a quick cycle. But there’s a broader --

MCLAUGHLIN: Are you pro-cat or anti-cat or neither?

ROGAN: I’m neither.

MCLAUGHLIN: You like cats?

ROGAN: I have no problem with cats. I don’t have a cat.

MCLAUGHLIN: Cats are intriguing. You don’t know what they’re thinking. They come over and they kind of rub your leg and they look at you.

ROGAN: Well, there’s one final broader issue here with the oceans is that, it’s just one example of a lot of issues we have in the oceans, and plastic in the ocean, toxicology. And my uncle and brother work for a group, Ocean Alliance, that does whale toxicology test.

CLIFT: The oceans are hurting. Anything that brings attention to that is good thing.


ZUCKERMAN: What we’re at least looking at here is the fact that a lot of these fishing boats, call them what you will, bring people in from some of the countries in Asia and they’re virtually slaves, OK? They have been -- they get terrible wages, they get terrible conditions.


ZUCKERMAN: And they can be held there for months at a time. So, this is the kind of thing that, in a sense, they use it because they’re so inexpensive and this is something that has to be addressed.

MCLAUGHLIN: You think that the Thai government should be faulted, and faulted strenuously?

ZUCKERMAN: Yes, absolutely.

MCLAUGHLIN: Prediction, Pat?

BUCHANAN: Pat, issues like abortion and the Planned Parenthood and the gay rights thing has caused a number of folks on the paleo-right, if you will, to talk about something called a Benedict Option, which is basically a secession from the society sort of in general. You know, it goes back to the old monasticism of the 13th century.


CLIFT: If there’s anything good to come out of the knucklehead American dentists who killed the lion, it’s that the lid has been blown of these companies that conduct these big game hunting trips and charge tens of thousand dollars to rich people, to get a trophy on their wall. I hope they come in for some heavy regulation.


ROGAN: Yes, I’m going off Cecil the Lion. I think the big story coming out of this is that actually American popular society, we should be embarrassed that we’ve been so attentive to this, and not to so many other issues like the Syrian Refugee Crisis, international politics, anything really.

MCLAUGHLIN: You like lions?


MCLAUGHLIN: Everybody seems, too.

ZUCKERMAN: Yes, I lived them.


ZUCKERMAN: I worked with them, too.

But let me just say, the man whom I think is going to emerge and surprise everybody is Governor Perry of Texas. I was just witness to his performance and he was phenomenal. He was very knowledgeable, very forceful, had a great sense of humor. He is an underestimated candidate.

MCLAUGHLIN: That’s good to hear.

I predict the Senate will not only pass a bill next week to defund Planned Parenthood and divert the $528 million in taxpayer subsidies it now receives, to clinics and hospitals for women’s health program. Enough Democrats will get onboard to overcome the 60-vote minimum needed to bring legislation to the floor.