THE MCLAUGHLIN GROUP HOST: JOHN MCLAUGHLIN PANEL: PATRICK BUCHANAN, MSNBC; ELEANOR CLIFT, NEWSWEEK; MONICA CROWLEY, WASHINGTON TIMES; CHRYSTIA FREELAND, FINANCIAL TIMES TAPED: FRIDAY, APRIL 30, 2010 BROADCAST: WEEKEND OF MAY 1-2, 2010
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MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue One: Arizona Aliens.
ARIZONA GOVERNOR JAN BREWER (R): (From videotape.) I've decided to sign Senate Bill 1070 into law because, though many people disagree, I firmly believe it represents what's best for Arizona.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The police in Arizona now have the okay to arrest illegal aliens. Governor Brewer argues that tough measures are essential. Four hundred and sixty thousand people are living in Arizona illegally -- almost half a million. So says the Department of Homeland Security.
The new law is hemmed in, however, by several conditions. Item: Arrest only within the context of regular contact; e.g., a bar brawl or a speed trap -- no random arrests or roaming Latino dragnet.
Item: Reasonable suspicion is required. Police cannot rely on hunches or race alone; no racial profiling.
Arizonans are overwhelmingly in favor of the new measure. Seventy percent back it. But many Democrats in and out of Arizona have blasted it, connecting the state statute with Adolf Hitler.
Here is Illinois Democratic Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky.
REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D-IL): The words "Show me your papers" we've known from movies of World War II coming out of the mouth of a Nazi.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Also, a man of the cloth went even further. Cardinal Roger Mahoney, archbishop of Los Angeles, likened the law to, quote, "German Nazi and Russian communist techniques whereby people are required to turn one another in to the authorities," unquote; in other words, quisling.
Question: If you must show identification to board an airplane or to open up a bank account, what's so wrong with having to show identification to prove your presence in the U.S. is legal? Pat Buchanan.
MR. BUCHANAN: Well, first, let me talk about Cardinal Mahoney. That is disgraceful to compare 70 percent of Arizona, the people of Arizona, to Nazis and Stalinists. As for Jan Schakowsky, she does not know what she is talking about.
John, since 1940 it's been a requirement of everybody that's in the country, an immigrant, legal immigrant or a guest worker, he carries his visa -- I mean, his card with him, his green card or his work permit. It's required to carry that in federal law. All Arizona is doing is saying federal law now applies in the state of Arizona.
Let's take a cop. Suppose he stops somebody speeding. When he stops the fellow, he says, "Give me your license." If the guy's got a license, he's a citizen. You have to be a citizen. If he doesn't have a license, "Let me see your registration. Whose car is this?" If he can't speak English, "Where did you go to high school?" He takes him in, and then he calls up immigration enforcement to determine.
Comparing this to the Nazis is an attack. It is an attack on this country.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor, do you agree with Pat? MS. CLIFT: No. (Laughs.) I don't like the comparison to the Nazis. I don't think you ever get anywhere making those comparisons. But this doesn't sound like small-government America to me to start requiring people to carry papers with them.
Every country is entitled to monitor their own borders, but it's a federal issue. And I think this law that Arizona has passed is almost certainly unconstitutional. But it's a cry for help, and they have ignited all sorts of debates in this country. And it's now landed in the lap of Congress, which, after a lot of dithering over years and administrations of different political parties, is now going to have to finally confront what they do with this issue.
It's not an issue that I think either party wanted to plan on in an election year, but it is here and it's going to be divisive. It's going to be ugly. But it may eventually yield some benefit in the fact that we will eventually -- you know, President Obama's first term -- get immigration reform.
MS. CROWLEY: The federal --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The statute in Arizona does not deviate from European standards. In fact, the Europeans require current address of you where you are now living.
MS. CROWLEY: That's right. Look, the federal government is constitutionally mandated to provide for the common defense. And in this case, that means preservation of U.S. sovereignty, and it also means national security by enforcing the border. Because the federal government refused to do it under both Republican and Democratic presidents for decades, now we have this situation. And that's why Arizona was forced to act.
Since 1940 -- Pat is right -- it has been a federal law for any resident alien to carry their papers with them, number one. Number two, while Eleanor is correct that the primary authority for immigration does rest with Washington, since 1976 the U.S. Supreme Court has held that states can enact laws to discourage illegal immigration. And that's why the 2007 Arizona law that prohibits any business from knowingly hiring illegal aliens was actually upheld by the most liberal circuit court, the 9th circuit court in San Francisco.
So the only thing Arizona really did here was put some steel into already existing law. They put a mechanism in place to allow the state to enforce the federal law.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Is immigration on the federal level by reason of a constitutional mandate, Pat?
MR. BUCHANAN: The government of the United States is obligated in the Constitution to defend the states from invasion. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: It derives from that.
MR. BUCHANAN: Well, that's -- that is exactly it. Immigration and citizenship in the United States is federal.
MS. FREELAND: Well, obviously, right? You can't have states deciding citizenship at the state level.
MR. BUCHANAN: Right.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Chrystia, welcome. Do you want to make some points on this?
MS. FREELAND: Yeah. I'd like to make two points. I mean, the first one is what I think is really important to notice here is the hypocrisy, the intellectual hypocrisy, because we have, as Eleanor was pointing out, a lot of the same people who are very exercised right now, I think quite rightly, about big government and pointing out the American tradition of liberty, of individual rights, are also the people who are on the side of allowing the government to intrude much more into individuals' lives on immigration.
Now, I think that's not surprising that we're seeing that right now, because now is a time of heightened economic anxiety. And I think the central issue here is an economic issue. We are seeing the middle class feeling very, very squeezed, very threatened, and it is squeezed and threatened. Unemployment is at 9.7 percent. A classic response to that kind of economic difficulty is protectionism and anti-immigration sentiment.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Don't forget --
MS. FREELAND: What I think -- hang on, hang on; just one more economic point, if I may.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
MS. FREELAND: I was at a conference where Mike Bloomberg spoke, and he made what I thought was really one of the most important points in this issue.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The mayor of New York.
MS. FREELAND: The mayor of New York. He said he is really terrified by this immigration debate, because he believes that America's historic economic strength has been its openness to immigrants. And New York -- MR. BUCHANAN: Let me give you one --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Is he taking into consideration --
MR. BUCHANAN: Let me give you a figure. You made your --
MS. FREELAND: Hang on. Hang on, Pat.
MR. BUCHANAN: You made your point.
MS. FREELAND: Just let me finish. Just let me finish. New York City, he says, is strong very, very much because of immigrants and small-business creation --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: But does he have --
MS. FREELAND: -- small-business creation, which he thinks is central to economic recovery.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, but does Bloomberg have --
MS. FREELAND: I agree --
MR. BUCHANAN: John, let me get in here.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let me get this in.
MR. BUCHANAN: Let me get in here, please.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Does Bloomberg have trucks coming across the border smuggling aliens into New York, as happens in Arizona?
MR. BUCHANAN: John, Phoenix is the kidnapping and the human- smuggling capital of North America. To your point, there are 8 million illegal aliens holding jobs in this country while 15 millions Americans -- African-Americans, Hispanic Americans -- are out of work. I believe we've got to put Americans first.
MS. CLIFT: Well --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay, let's let John McCain in here. Blame the feds.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ): (From videotape.) People are free to express their views. But the fact is, the Arizona legislature and governor acted for one reason, and that is because the federal government did not act and carry out its responsibilities to secure our borders.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: President Obama agrees with Senator McCain's premise, at least on its principal point. PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: (From videotape.) Our failure to act responsibly at the federal level will only open the door to irresponsibility by others. And that includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona, which threaten to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Did you hear that Arizona reference? Is that a wedge issue? What's a wedge issue?
MR. BUCHANAN: There's a lot of wedge issues. But he is right. The dereliction of its duty by the government of the United States, which Barack Obama heads, is the reason we have a crisis.
MS. FREELAND: But that --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let Monica in. Let Monica in.
MS. FREELAND: -- (inaudible) -- Barack Obama. I mean, come on.
MR. BUCHANAN: Let Monica in. Let Monica in.
MS. FREELAND: Look, you can agree that there is a problem that Arizona, as a border state, is uniquely vulnerable. And actually, legislation that California passed in the past has funneled immigration to Arizona.
MS. CLIFT: Yeah, and --
MS. FREELAND: Arizona is vulnerable.
MR. BUCHANAN: That's not immigration. It is an illegal intrusion.
MS. FREELAND: Arizona is uniquely vulnerable, but that doesn't mean that Arizona --
MS. CLIFT: There are --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: California put up walls, right?
MS. CLIFT: There are --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The walls kept them up.
MS. CLIFT: There are regional differences --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Walls.
MS. CLIFT: -- in how we handle immigration. In fact, Texas Governor George W. Bush was very progressive on immigration, and Texas handles the situation quite well. But to Pat's point, saying they're taking jobs from Americans, this kind of grievance politics, that's the wedge issue that's coming in here. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Where --
MS. CLIFT: And then you have Republicans screaming that Democrats --
MS. CROWLEY: Wait a minute.
MS. CLIFT: -- Democrats are taking it up for political reasons.
How could they ignore it?
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: All right, let's give Monica a chance.
MS. CROWLEY: First of all --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let me ask you a question. Where does this leave the Statue of Liberty -- "Give me your tired, your poor"?
MS. CROWLEY: Do you know what that was a reference to? Legal immigration, John. When did we lose sight of the word illegal, illegal immigration? The word illegal is the operative word here. We are a nation of immigrants. If you want to come to this country, we're happy to have you. We have processes in place to do it the right way.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You think that's on the statue.
MS. CROWLEY: That is not the issue.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: That's Emma Lazarus's words?
MS. CROWLEY: Yes, for legal immigration, John.
MS. FREELAND: No, but --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let her -- let her finish.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, hold on.
MS. CROWLEY: Let me just address Chrystia's point about how conservatives are so opposed to illegal immigration and the whole big- government issue. There are two constitutional requirements here by the federal government. When you look at the Constitution, it's, one, to protect from external enemies, i.e. an illegal-immigrant invasion; and number two, to provide --
MS. FREELAND: Is there an invasion --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let her finish. Let her finish. Let her finish. MR. BUCHANAN: You've got 12 million people here --
MS. CROWLEY: Let me just finish the second point.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Will you let her finish?
What's the point?
MS. CROWLEY: The second constitutional requirement for the government is to provide for internal law and order. And the chaos we have on the border now is so extreme with the drug cartels --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay.
MS. CROWLEY: -- that more people have been killed on the border than Iraq and Afghanistan combined.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Okay. English only, please.
Quote: "The right thing for the United States to do and the best way to keep Americans in favor of immigration is to take national identity seriously." Amy Chua says to do so, make English the official language of the United States. Quote: "More stringent English-language proficiency requirements for citizenship should be set up," unquote.
The bedrock is national identity. If we -- if the national identity suffers by reason of multiple languages --
MR. BUCHANAN: Right.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- then the bedrock of our society, which is our identity --
MR. BUCHANAN: Right.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- being an American is an American --
MR. BUCHANAN: You're exactly --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- English preserves that. Is that logical?
MR. BUCHANAN: That's very true. Look, this is one of the great arguments we've got. Are we a multicultural country or do we have an American culture to which we all contribute? And I think, John, if we don't have that one culture, we're going to wind up Balkanized. But basically, to your point --
MS. CLIFT: We have --
MR. BUCHANAN: -- one point. There are as many illegal aliens in Arizona as there are soldiers in the Army of the United States. That is an invasion. MS. CLIFT: We -- well, it's a happy invasion for most people in this country, who love --
MR. BUCHANAN: Tell it to --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: (Laughs.)
MS. CLIFT: Excuse me. I'll let Chrystia -- my turn. We love the diversity of food. English is the language of commerce. People who come here want to learn our language. There is a problem with human smuggling and with drug smuggling. But the vast majority of Mexicans -- and that's who we're talking about who come here -- come here to work. And they're terrified, and they keep their heads down. And they commit far fewer crimes --
MR. BUCHANAN: They don't have to if they don't break in.
MS. CLIFT: -- than other groups.
MR. BUCHANAN: If they don't break in, why do they keep their heads down?
MS. FREELAND: The issue is --
MS. CLIFT: Corporate America has welcomed these people --
MR. BUCHANAN: All right, punish corporate America.
MS. CLIFT: -- has welcomed these people with open arms.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: All right --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let Chrystia in here. Let Chrystia in.
Go ahead, Chrystia.
MS. FREELAND: Yes. I'm just going to agree with Eleanor's point. I mean, I absolutely agree laws must be upheld, but I think Arizona is going about it the wrong way. Eleanor makes the point that it's at the employer level that you should be enforcing this. If there weren't --
MR. BUCHANAN: Then why isn't Obama doing that? Why isn't Obama doing that?
MS. FREELAND: If there weren't the demand --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: We're getting similar legislation in Texas and Colorado, correct? MR. BUCHANAN: Sure. Arizona passed a law cutting off all social welfare.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let Monica in.
MS. CROWLEY: Let me address another point that gets to our question about English as the national language. It is a question about assimilation. And Teddy Roosevelt in 1907 was talking about the first big waves, mostly from Western and Eastern Europe, coming into the United States legally when he said this.
It is all a question of assimilation, speaking English, honoring the American flag, because becoming an American is not just waltzing over the border and then getting amnesty. Becoming an American is about assimilation. And what has happened --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think --
MS. CROWLEY: -- in the Latino communities, which has hurt them --
MS. CLIFT: No, but --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I'd like to ask --
MS. CROWLEY: Excuse me.
MS. CLIFT: Nobody waltzes over the border --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think --
MS. CROWLEY: Oh, come on, Eleanor.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think our national identity as Americans is ebbing?
MS. CLIFT: No.
MS. FREELAND: No, absolutely not.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you? Do you?
MR. BUCHANAN: Yes, it is, because one language, one country. You get two languages, two cultures, you get two countries. MS. CLIFT: You go to --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you want a sense of -- you see national identity as essential to our perpetuation.
MR. BUCHANAN: National identity is one of the most important issues facing America.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Exit question --
MR. BUCHANAN: We are coming apart.
MS. CLIFT: You go to high schools where they speak 100 different languages. That is America's strength that people can thrive here.
MR. BUCHANAN: Why is it strong that you've got a tower of Babel?
MS. CLIFT: They all learn English too.
MS. FREELAND: Yeah, they all learn English.
MS. CLIFT: That's not the tower of Babel.
MR. BUCHANAN: A hundred languages is the tower of Babel.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: (Laughs.) Exit question --
MS. CLIFT: No. They communicate --
MS. FREELAND: Immigrants are learning English --
MS. CLIFT: Right.
MS. FREELAND: -- as they always have done. I think that you guys should have more faith in America.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Exit question --
MS. CLIFT: I'll bet Pat can speak another language.
MR. BUCHANAN: (Laughs.)
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Exit question: Has Arizona joined the tea-party movement? Are the states now in revolt against Washington? Pat Buchanan.
MR. BUCHANAN: Indeed they are. They're trying to enforce laws that the federal government has failed or refused to enforce.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You think your time has come.
MR. BUCHANAN: My time -- it wasn't -- it has. (Laughs.) MS. CLIFT: Very mixed bag. Most law-enforcement people don't like this. The law is too vague. It puts too much of a burden on them. You're going to have conventions boycotting Arizona. This is going to put pressure on the Congress to act, and I think they will begin work on the immigration reform that the country needs.
MS. CROWLEY: This is --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Has Washington lost the consent of the governed?
MS. CROWLEY: In many ways it is losing the consent of the governed. When you look at national polls on this Arizona immigration bill, over 50 percent of the American people agree with what Arizona did. This is federalism in full flower. We're dealing with the national-security aspect of this. We're dealing with so many aspects to illegal immigration, and the American people have had quite enough.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Chrystia.
MS. FREELAND: This is not about the states versus the feds. This is about economic anxiety. And this actually could turn out to be a very dangerous issue for the Republicans.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I think our national --
MR. BUCHANAN: Identity.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- identity has evaporated somewhat.
Issue Two: Has Crist Risen?
Before this week, Florida Republican Governor Charlie Crist had been running for the U.S. Senate as a Republican. But this week Crist announced that he was changing his political status from Republican to independent. The tea-party favorite is Republican Marco Rubio, who has held a 20-point lead over Crist despite allegations that Rubio billed over $100,000 of party funds to a GOP credit card that included personal expenditures -- minivan repairs, groceries, restaurants, limousines, a $134 haircut. Rubio says that any monies billed to the GOP credit card were for, quote, "legitimate political purposes," unquote.
Question: Should Florida voters require Charles Crist to announce now, if he wins Florida, that he will caucus, when he gets to the Senate, with the Democrats or he will caucus with the Republicans? Does the public have the right to know now? Chrystia Freeland.
MS. FREELAND: Yeah, I think people should ask him that question. Of course they should.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Should he answer it? Should he be obliged to answer it? MS. FREELAND: Well, should he --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Should we know where this guy is going to go?
MS. FREELAND: -- legally be obliged to answer it? I mean, he's a politician.
MR. BUCHANAN: You can't force him. (Laughs.)
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: They have to select their majority leader.
MS. FREELAND: We can't force him. But if I were a voter, I would want to know.
MR. BUCHANAN: Sure.
MS. FREELAND: Sure.
MS. CROWLEY: The problem --
MS. FREELAND: (Inaudible.)
MS. CROWLEY: The problem is that you could ask him the question, but Charlie Crist's words now are mud. Last week he went on Fox News Channel or "Fox News Sunday" and he said point blank he would not run as an independent. Now he's running as no party affiliation. He also said he was going to stick it out in the Republican primary, and if someone else won, he would throw his support behind that person.
So, look, there are a lot of things going on in Florida. But what I really think that this shows is that there is an internal struggle within the Republican Party, and it's not just tea party versus moderate Republicans. It's reform-minded Republicans, like Marco Rubio, versus the establishment Republicans like Charlie Crist.
MS. CLIFT: Well --
MS. CROWLEY: And Charlie Crist now, by taking this road, his political career is finished.
MS. CLIFT: It looks like rank political opportunism, but that didn't hurt Joe Lieberman. And I think if Charlie Crist does win -- and I think he does have -- I can make a case for any one of the three major candidates to win that race -- I think he will caucus with the Republicans. But he would be someone --
MS. FREELAND: Just like Lieberman. MS. CLIFT: Yeah, like Lieberman caucused with the Democrats. And I think he would be someone who would cross the aisle and might make some accommodation on policies in a future Congress, future Senate, more easy than it is today.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What does Jesse Helms say about what's in the middle of a road?
MR. BUCHANAN: It's a yellow stripe and a dead skunk.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: And a dead skunk. And what else?
MR. BUCHANAN: (Laughs.)
MS. FREELAND: On the other hand --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Politicians like Crist, right?
MR. BUCHANAN: Okay. Well, Crist --
MS. FREELAND: Yeah. No, but John, it's hardly a problem in American politics that there aren't enough moderates.
MR. BUCHANAN: All right, let me get into this.
MS. FREELAND: Would that be a bad thing to have more moderates in the Senate?
MR. BUCHANAN: Let me get into this. Charlie Crist can't win unless one of the other two candidates, who are going to get 25 to 30, even a weak candidate, and Rubio should get 40 -- somebody's got to collapse. And what he's betting on, I think, is that the so-called scandal in the Republican Party will sink Rubio, and then he can move into that base. Otherwise he's --
MS. CLIFT: Yeah. If the major fight is between the two Republicans, really, it opens the door --
MR. BUCHANAN: He's lost that fight.
MS. CLIFT: -- for Democrat Kendrick Meek, who is actually a good candidate, a former police officer, son of a former congresswoman --
MR. BUCHANAN: But he's very low in the polls.
MS. CLIFT: He's run statewide.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Monica.
MS. CROWLEY: It's very difficult for any independent to run a successful three-way race. And the difference between Joe Lieberman and Charlie Crist is that Joe Lieberman was always a conviction politician. I mean, he staked his entire political career on the Iraq war. He also had money and infrastructure, which is something that's -- the money certainly has dried up for Charlie Crist. A lot of his big donors --
MR. BUCHANAN: And the Republican went to 10 percent.
MS. CROWLEY: -- have cut him off, and he's got no party infrastructure to fall back on.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What about Arlen? What about Arlen? Is he in the same category as Joe?
MS. CROWLEY: Arlen Specter is absolutely in the same category. Arlen Specter is the biggest chump in the Congress, because he thought that the Democratic wave was going to continue. It has been halted in its tracks, and now he's stuck.
MR. BUCHANAN: You know what he should have done. Charlie Crist might have done better going into the Democratic primary, beating and eliminating Meek. Then he'd have the Democrats --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: All right, give me a one-word answer. Exit question: Was Crist's move smart or dumb? Pat Buchanan.
MR. BUCHANAN: Fatal.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor.
MS. CLIFT: Smart.
MS. CROWLEY: Very dumb.
MS. FREELAND: The only thing he could do. He had no alternative.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Exceedingly dumb.
Issue Three: Facebook's Big Bucks.
Facebook has 400 million users, 6 percent of everyone on the planet. Users connect to friends, colleagues, and meet new people through Facebook-hosted applications and tools.
Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg, a 26-year-old Harvard dropout, is worth $4 billion. That's "b," as in "boy," billion. Zuckerberg has made Facebook a bottomless gold mine. How? Marketing, he says. Advertisers gain invaluable demographic general information about their prospective consumers -- their names, their friends' names, profile pictures, gender, user names, user IDs, interests; in Zuckerberg's words, a social, personalized, smarter and semantically aware experience. Zuckerberg is even creating his own currency. Facebook is testing a credits program to capitalize on the exchange of millions of dollars already spent by users through commercial transactions, like buying Shakira's Facebook hit song, Lo Hecho Esta Hecho.
Question: Is there a major privacy issue here with Facebook? Eleanor.
MS. CLIFT: I think people gave up privacy rights once they joined Facebook. I mean, you're putting yourself out there. You're asking people to communicate with you. You're looking for friends from your high-school class. So I don't think privacy is uppermost in the minds of people who join Facebook. And he's got a new application now, I gather, where he can embed Facebook into -- if you see a story that you like, you can push a button; it'll flip over to your Facebook page. Or if you put up a post on French food, you can get ads about French food. So this is a brave new world, John.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, you can do that with Kindle too. You can highlight as you go.
MS. CLIFT: Okay.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Then you get automatically back to it.
Kindle, Pat. Look into that. (Laughter.)
Do you know how Zuckerberg describes privacy? "An outdated social norm." Privacy is an outdated social norm. Do you agree with Zuckerberg?
MR. BUCHANAN: I agree if you go on Facebook it's outdated. If you stay away from all that nonsense, you can still live a quiet, contemplative life -- (laughter) -- as I've tried to do.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think you have any privacy left, really, if somebody wants to explore your background?
MR. BUCHANAN: I live right next door to the CIA, so it's fairly limited, John.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Will they discover all the Nixonian elements of your background?
MS. CROWLEY: (Laughs.)
MR. BUCHANAN: No, they have not yet. There are still some files. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: He carried the bag before he was elected president.
MS. CROWLEY: So did I, by the way.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You did too. You wrote his biography.
MS. CROWLEY: Well, I worked with him during the last years of his life. But I will say this --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, you're proud of that.
MS. CROWLEY: Very. Very much. I admired him enormously, and he was a dear friend.
But I will say this on the privacy issue. You know, there is something to what he is saying, because when you walk down the streets of any major American city, there are cameras everywhere monitoring every corner, every block.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: This is in Great Britain.
MS. CROWLEY: And here in the United States. There are a lot of cities that have cameras for traffic violations. You can't pull up to a stop sign or a light without being --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What do you think of that? What do you think of that?
MS. CROWLEY: And everybody has a cell phone. People can take pictures of you, whether you're famous or not.
MS. FREELAND: I do think --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: We have terrorism in the world. Don't you understand?
MS. CROWLEY: No, I --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: We need all that surveillance.
MS. CROWLEY: I understand why it's being done. I'm just getting to the point of privacy, which doesn't seem to exist very much anymore in this world.
MS. FREELAND: But don't you think, Monica, that surveillance on a street is different from choosing voluntarily to be part of a community which is very rich for the people who participate in it? And, you know, as Eleanor was saying, people who are active participants in the Facebook world, they're not looking for privacy; quite the opposite. They're looking to share. The one thing that has come up with this issue this week, which I think is worth thinking about, is the idea of opting out or opting in. And I do think that companies in general should err on the side of giving you the right to opt in rather than requiring you to opt out.
MS. CLIFT: People have selective concerns about privacy. Monica is worried about the cameras --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Surveillance.
MS. CLIFT: -- on the street.
MS. CROWLEY: No, no. I agree with it.
MS. CLIFT: But she doesn't mind --
MS. CROWLEY: I agree with it. I don't have a problem with it.
MS. CLIFT: All right, but she doesn't --
MS. CROWLEY: But --
MS. CLIFT: But she doesn't mind being asked for her papers when she goes to visit --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What about --
MR. BUCHANAN: (Inaudible.)
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I want to make this point, and that is that Zuckerberg says that there is a privacy-control mechanism. Wired Magazine describes that as so hard to use, it is, quote, "a Rubik's Cube-esque privacy control."
MS. FREELAND: Right. No, this is --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you understand?
MR. BUCHANAN: Look, I agree with Chrystia here. It does provide a community for a lot of people seeking community who haven't been able to find it, and I think that's probably a good thing.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: But it's so complicated, you can't use the device --
MS. FREELAND: No, no. But John, this is the point that I was making.
MR. BUCHANAN: Don't go into Facebook if you don't want to be bugged.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: There you are. MS. FREELAND: No, but this is the point I was making. You can --
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Words to live by from Buchanan. (Laughter.)
MS. FREELAND: -- have opting out or opting in.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What?
MS. FREELAND: You can have opting out or opting in.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Predictions, Pat. Ten seconds.
MR. BUCHANAN: Ukraine's NATO bid is dead after they let the Russians have the naval base for another 25 years.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor.
MS. CLIFT: The catastrophic oil spill in the Gulf will silence Sarah Palin's cry to "Drill, baby, drill."
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What about the president's cry to open up the seabed?
MS. CLIFT: He -- it puts that on hold.
MS. CROWLEY: I'm going to lighten it up a little bit. I predict a British royal wedding. I think that Prince William is going to marry his long-time girlfriend, Kate Middleton, by the end of the year.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Ah.
MS. FREELAND: I'm going to move back into very serious territory, predicting that the financial-reform legislation will pass, and it will be a big bump for the Democrats.
MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley will not run for re-election next year. White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel will, and he will win.